I found this post of Dave’s to be rife with blatant attempts at manipulation. Manipulation who or what I’m not sure.
I heard by reading a bunch of blogs that Tim Bray said some unkind things about me and my work at his Etech presentation. This is what happens when you try to create a monoculture, it has to demonize those who have differing opinions.
What did Bray say about Winer? I looked aruond, and this was the best I could find. If that’s all there is, Dave horribly mischaracterized Bray. Not that this would be new. Especially since the entire post rides on the preceding quoted passage. Is it “unkind” to say that RSS lacks definition in the spec? Maybe, but it’s true. Is it “unkind” to say that RSS is good enough for blogs but not more technical applications?
In XML protocols and formats he’s invested in everything that’s Not-Dave, or tried to (it doesn’t work, my stuff is too pervasive). But that’s why you hear from Tim Bray at his conferences, and not from me. (If I were there, I think Tim would be more of a gentlemen(sic), btw.)
More of Dave’s trademarked modesty. And jealousy. You can tell he’s miffed that nobody wants him to speak at their conferences. (Or, maybe, they’re just worried he’ll fly off the handle like he did at Blog Nashville) I think what Dave means by “Tim would be more of a gentlemen(sic)” is “Tim would kiss my ass”.
I don’t say Ray shouldn’t present at O’Reilly conferences even though they try to erase my work. I know they won’t succeed, by now you’d think even O’Reilly would get that. But I have to object when Microsoft uses my work and free consultation, and then delivers the benefit to O’Reilly. That’s just wrong. I think Microsoft is better than that. I’d love to hear what they have to say about that.
Isn’t it refreshing how any time someone advocates ATOM they’re “trying to erase his work.”
Also, if Dave’s “consultation” is conditioned on not in any way benefiting anyone Dave dislikes, how useful is it? How “free”?
And isn’t most of Dave’s work in the public domain now? Or, at the very least, under a more-or-less open license? How can he qualify its use?
Finally, if those conditions weren’t expressed ahead of his “consultation”, is it really “wrong” for Microsoft to do as they see fit with the advice he gives? (And let’s not fool ourselves, Dave isn’t some benevolent philanthropist going around handing out advice to make the world a better place — he does it because it strokes his ego. Much in the same way being invited to speak at a conference would.)
UPDATE: Because Dave took down his post with no retraction or apology, here’s the full-text:
I heard by reading a bunch of blogs that Tim Bray said some unkind things about me and my work at his Etech presentation. This is what happens when you try to create a monoculture, it has to demonize those who have differing opinions. That’s why O’Reilly conferences so lack substance, because they always only present one side, the side that Tim has invested in. In XML protocols and formats he’s invested in everything that’s Not-Dave, or tried to (it doesn’t work, my stuff is too pervasive). But that’s why you hear from Tim Bray at his conferences, and not from me. (If I were there, I think Tim would be more of a gentlemen, btw.)
It’s unfortunate when this monoculture spreads to others, probably innocently, without them understanding that’s what’s happening. Last night I had a phone talk with Frank X. Shaw, at Waggener-Edstrom, Microsoft’s public relations firm. I explained that the program at their Mix 06 conference reads like the program at an O’Reilly conference. This is too bad, because Microsoft has its own independent view of this stuff and are not captive to O’Reilly’s limited thinking, but probably unknowingly, they have limited their conference to the O’Reilly view.
I also sent an email to Ray Ozzie, explaining that we have to get better at working together. I don’t say Ray shouldn’t present at O’Reilly conferences even though they try to erase my work. I know they won’t succeed, by now you’d think even O’Reilly would get that. But I have to object when Microsoft uses my work and free consultation, and then delivers the benefit to O’Reilly. That’s just wrong. I think Microsoft is better than that. I’d love to hear what they have to say about that.
~EOW
Where was it that he shouted at Bill Kearney? What was that about?
hahaha, the url has an anchor #isMicrosoftSubordinateToOreilly but the page has already been totally self-cleansed by Winer. Typical.
Nice catch EOW. I think there’s a constant battle with Winer that he just can’t win: he loves the ego of being a “founder”, “father”, “inventor” of a technology (even if its just him who thinks so), yet the only reason his “inventions” became popular were due to other people (Adam Curry, Netscape, Microsoft, Apple) actually finding novel or ubiquitous uses for the specs. And the only reason these ppl (apart from Curry perhaps) use them? Because they’re open and free to use.
Winer, to my mind, just can’t link the two up and be happy, which is a shame. He seems to not be happy knowing he played a substantial role in “social publishing” whilst making very little money from it and retaining very little control from it.
Me? I’ve played a role in some bits and bobs, and I love the inner feeling of knowing millions of people use something that I contributed towards. And if they clicked there and there, they’re now running my code. That’s a karma pleaser
But, I guess until he finds that inner-sanctum, Winer will continue alienating and attacking his peers like with this post. Sad, really.
What’s worse, EOW Reader, is that he actually has made a boat-load of cash from Blogging with the sale of weblogs.com, and he’s still not happy. One might wonder what’s wrong in his head that makes him so miserable most of the time.
I’ve played a role in some bits and bobs, I love the inner feeling of knowing millions of people use something that I contributed towards.
sure you did… LOL.
doubter: That’s what’s so fantastic about software engineering, and the reason I do it…create once, re-use infinitum.
I just don’t believe you . You didn’t write anything that’s used by millions
I wrote something that’s used by three people.
Boy, that “doubter,” s/he’s a tough one. No pullin’ the wool over his/her eyes, nosiree.
this is like EOW for Andrew Sullilvan. http://sullywatch.blogspot.com/
I’d like to set one up to watch that dickhead Mark Pilgrim.
WOW Wow wow
I’ve been getting both public and private warnings that some people are going to try to do something nasty with OPML, maybe get a “war” going with me. I’d love to avoid having to protect my creative work this time. I think at this point, no one would argue that, for better or worse, I am the designer of OPML, and the author of its spec, and the developer of the app that defines the format (the last part probably some people would contest, but I believe most reasonable people would concede that). Yet, based recent experience, there are people who think it can be “taken over.” I don’t know if it can or it can’t. But why not wait until after the OPML Editor 1.0 release ships to try to hijack the format. After that I won’t fight with you. I probably won’t even fight very much now. The fight has pretty much gone out of me. I’m feeling the stress of all the fighting, and age, and I’m satisfied that I have enough money to retire on now. Why not let me go, quietly and peacefully, I’ll stop writing my blog, I’ll stop developing new stuff, you can be me if you want, I won’t be in your way. How about it? If ever there was a peace offering, it seems like this one must be too good to be true.
Scripting News is taking a break.
The lack of support, even name-calling, from people who think of themselves as my friend, has got me thinking that maybe this isn’t worth it. And the abuse from others, bordering on cruelty, is intolerable.
I’m thinking about all the services I provide and UserLand provides, for free, after years of pouring money and energy into community building, and the lack of appreciation for any of that in the community.
So I’m shutting down Scripting News now, to give me some time to think, and to give you all a demo of what it would be like if it weren’t here. These last few days have been really awful. You can’t imagine what it’s like to have so many people screaming at you. It’s inhuman, especially considering that my health isn’t that good. The only conclusion I can come to is that I shouldn’t be doing this.
Give it some thought. This is what it would look like if there were no Scripting News. What would it be worth to you, not in monetary terms, but in support terms, to keep this going.
I’m not willing to go on without more support.
Best wishes.
Dave
PS: Thanks for all the notes. You guys are great. I want to find a way to put them all on the Web.
PPS: And by the way, my Mom reads Scripting News, and she says I can come home for a break anytime I want. That’s coool.
Yeah, those were some though times. when that Mark Pilgrim fucker was in high gear. So long asshole! Your blog is now a “homepage” dive into that…
============== Why I will stop blogging
I can do it, folks, I have already, in some sense, stopped one of my rivers, and soon, probably before the end of 2006, I will put this site in mothballs, in archive mode, and go on to other things, Murphy-willing of course.
It’s been a long time coming. When I started blogging, depending on how you look at it, either in 1994, 1996 or 1997, I had different goals, and happily the goals have been accomplished. Billions of Websites now no longer seems an outrageously ambitious goal. We’re pretty close to a billion, I suspect. The goal was also to create tools that would make it easy for everyone to have a site, and then more specifically a chronological one. That’s done.
I wanted programming to turn upside down, to have the Internet be the platform instead of Microsoft and Apple. That worked too. APIs on web apps are now commonplace, and a basis for comparison between offerings. While user interfaces have gotten better, of course, there’s been a steady flow of new ideas in how my work connects with yours, and vice versa, and we’re doing it without a platform vendor controlling it.
I wanted decentralized news. We can do for ourselves what the pros haven’t been doing. And politics — I don’t doubt that the House of Representatives will be filled with bloggers, if not in 2006, then surely in 2008. There’s no turning back on any of it. The 20th Century is fading and the new century is going strong. There really was a big shift as the calendar rolled over, and I’m totally glad to be a part of it.
So there’s the first part of my reason. Blogging doesn’t need me anymore. It’ll go on just as well, maybe even better, with some new space opened up for some new things. But more important to me, there will be new space for me. Blogging not only takes a lot of time (which I don’t begrudge it, I love writing) but it also limits what I can do, because it’s made me a public figure. I want some privacy, I want to matter less, so I can retool, and matter more, in different ways. What those ways are, however, are things I won’t be talking about here. That’s the point. That’s the big reason why.
ha ha. fuck you Bill Kearney , huh?
So Dave Winer the Whiner is going to quit blogging. Who cares? This sounds like one of those typical blogosphere ego trips where he wants everyone to write in and say “No, no! Say it ain’t so, Dave!” Blogging is about content, not celebrity. Winer leaving blogging is no loss except to his fanboy club.
lol http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/002451.html